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Post by James on Jun 17, 2012 21:08:12 GMT -5
It's not all about writing and reviewing for the AWR Project. It's also about the craft of writing itself. How does it work? What do you find important? What do we really need to know as writers? That's where the Roundtable comes in. It's where we come to discuss the craft of writing. Exchange ideas and technique.
Also, though, to avoid it all becoming a bit too stuffy and high-brow, every once in a while we'll have a fun topic. A topic of discussion where you might be require to use a bit of rhetoric, a bit of humour. Maybe even a topic where you have to argue the opposite of what you actually believe.
Finally, each discussion will have a motion that at the end of the week, you vote for. It won't be serious. It's just to see what people think by the end of the week. So, what's the first topic. Well it comes from the brain of Pete. He wants to talk about: Discussion #1 Beginnings and Endings From his own mouth keyboard: "Starts and endings. Not just in the bigger picture, but the actual importance of the -first words- and -last words- of stories, the importance of getting the reader interested at the beginning, the importance of concluding the story properly, etc. Beginnings and endings. I like that. I've always been fascinated by the choices authors make in the -very beginning- and -very end- of books." Looks like we have a fair bit to discuss. Get cracking. And a new topic shall be posted around this time next week.
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Post by Sekot on Jun 17, 2012 21:56:43 GMT -5
Beginnings are terrible. I love endings, I always have my ending planned out, at least in super broad strokes, but I always have a lot of trouble with my beginning and my story usually lives or dies depending on whether or not I can get that off the ground. This project I've been working on has been sitting for weeks because I just can't get the beginning to work properly.
I always struggle with how long the beginning should be. What I should reveal, how much time I should spend on introducing the setting versus introducing characters. I guess my writing tends to be pretty minimalist when it comes to settings. I heard somewhere that the beginning pages, like up to page five, should introduce your character's age, what they look like, where they are in life, and where they're going, but that's so formulaic it hurts.
Personally, I don't know if I'm trying to do too many things at once or what. Its been forever since I've read an actual book so it might help to go back and see how other authors create the first setting. Usually I like starting with action scenes, they're a good, cheap hook, but with a character centered conflict with world conflict on the sidelines, I feel like an action scene will just be detrimental. And I don't want to do a flashback because without knowing about any characters or any setting, I think a flashback might just be a little too jarring.
Maybe I'm too caught up in keeping my cards close to my chest and I need to lay out a few early "reveals". I like to keep things hidden, but I'm beginning to think that the immediate beginning isn't a good place to do that.
Edit: Its not a "stranger comes to town story" and I'm plopping you down in the middle of an existing story, which I guess is a slight problem that might need fixing.
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Post by James on Jun 17, 2012 22:19:55 GMT -5
Beginnings are terrible. I love endings, I always have my ending planned out, at least in super broad strokes, but I always have a lot of trouble with my beginning and my story usually lives or dies depending on whether or not I can get that off the ground. This project I've been working on has been sitting for weeks because I just can't get the beginning to work properly. I was about to jump in with a disagreement straight away after that first sentence, but the fact that your own project is bogged down due to a problem with a beginning highlights my own view. The beginning is key. Yes, a good ending is important. But I think you have wiggle room. A poor ending, it might leave a bitter taste in the mouth, but ultimately you've got the reader's attention for the whole story. And furthermore, as long as its not abysmal, people will come back even after a poor ending. But the beginning? The beginning is vital. A poor beginning and its all over. It's really hard to come back from a bad start. With a bad ending, at least the reader can reflect on possibly the excellent middle and start. With a bad beginning, well, the reader might not even get to the excellent middle. I don't think there's any formula for a good start. All I think you need to have done in the first few pages is to have anchored either an interesting character, setting or plot. If I'm intrigued about what's going on. If I'm amazed by what I'm picturing in my mind. If I've already fallen in love with the character then you have a good beginning. You just need something for the reader to hook themselves to. I would say you should use the secrecy to your advantage. Build intrigue. Build mystery. Build suspense. Perhaps that the hook they're looking for. Maybe the beginning leave them going "well... I have to go on because I don't have a fuck what's going on." As long as the writing itself is good, then I think that can work. Just moving a little onto something Pete put forward - the actual first word; the first sentence. And last. The very start and the very end. I think what I want from the very start is something that catches my attention. "Mr. and Mrs. Dursley, of number four, Privet Drive, were proud to say that they were perfectly normal, thank you very much." From that first sentence, I already have a like (the tone of thank you very much) and I remember being intrigued as a child with the idea that I knew from that first sentence something strange was bound to happen (even if I had already seen the film). The very start is about catching my attention. The rest of the beginning is making sure it's kept and fed. For the very end? I want to feel a sense of completeness. The conflict or whatever doesn't have to be completed. Everything can be chaos. But I, personally, like to put down that book and feel like I've -finished-. "Well, I'm back,' he said." That's an ending right there. But it can be some sort of joke as well, an ending with a joke can achieve that sense of completion too.
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Post by J.O.N ((Dragonwing)) on Jun 18, 2012 0:15:51 GMT -5
I find endings tend to write themselves. You've spent the entire time writing up to that point so you should already have a fairly clear idea of how it is going to go and if you don't, your story tends to suffer from it as your plots and story-line's begin to flail about with no direction. The hard part is beginnings, because as James said, they need to get the reader hooked and that first sentence can set the tone for the rest of the story.
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Post by James on Jun 18, 2012 0:23:37 GMT -5
I find endings tend to write themselves. You've spent the entire time writing up to that point so you should already have a fairly clear idea of how it is going to go I think that's the reason why a time lapsed epilogue never quite works. The reader and writer are largely equals throughout the course of the story. The writer knows more background information, yes. But both knows the main thrust of what is happening. They both can begin to piece together the natural and logical progression of plot lines. If you insert a gap, say nineteen years, and then have the ending, then all of the sudden the reader has been abruptly thrown from the groove he has built. He's almost in a completely new story. And it doesn't have that same sense of completion because of this. The only exception being if long periods of time lapses are par for the course for the book itself, then it feels natural. Same works for TV as well. I said that endings can leave bitter tastes in the mouth. My ten (?) year old self has still not removed the bitter taste that the ending of the second series of Digimon left.
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Post by J.O.N ((Dragonwing)) on Jun 18, 2012 0:42:43 GMT -5
Endings like that tend to also leave the reader feeling cheated. They've built this love of a character/s and suddenly the story skips ahead for a page or two and your left going "Well, what happened during the skip?".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 14:05:30 GMT -5
I have the absolute hardest time coming up beginnings. Endings I let happen organically and seldom plan for, but beginnings are next to impossible for me.
Any thoughts on how to make a good beginning? What makes a good beginning? Is a hook more important, or is introduction?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 18:41:29 GMT -5
I have the absolute hardest time coming up beginnings. Endings I let happen organically and seldom plan for, but beginnings are next to impossible for me. Any thoughts on how to make a good beginning? What makes a good beginning? Is a hook more important, or is introduction? My favorite beginnings usually begin with quotes from the universe the story is set in. It brings you into the world quickly by a quick twist of having written material within the material you are currently reading. That sets in my mind that the author has thoroughly fleshed out the background of the piece, that they've spent enough time in their world to come up with histories and culture, a - past- in the present you're about to read in. That, more than anything, draws me into a story. Edit: Unless it's a prophecy or something earth-shattering. Then it's just silly.
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Post by Sekot on Jun 18, 2012 22:29:25 GMT -5
Beginnings are terrible. I love endings, I always have my ending planned out, at least in super broad strokes, but I always have a lot of trouble with my beginning and my story usually lives or dies depending on whether or not I can get that off the ground. This project I've been working on has been sitting for weeks because I just can't get the beginning to work properly. I was about to jump in with a disagreement straight away after that first sentence, but the fact that your own project is bogged down due to a problem with a beginning highlights my own view. The beginning is key. Yes, a good ending is important. But I think you have wiggle room. A poor ending, it might leave a bitter taste in the mouth, but ultimately you've got the reader's attention for the whole story. And furthermore, as long as its not abysmal, people will come back even after a poor ending. But the beginning? The beginning is vital. A poor beginning and its all over. It's really hard to come back from a bad start. With a bad ending, at least the reader can reflect on possibly the excellent middle and start. With a bad beginning, well, the reader might not even get to the excellent middle. I think this might be where we differ. Because I can get through a shitty beginning no problem. So long as there is a slight promise of a good ending. I've never really not finished a book, maybe two or three times ever. Its always about the ending for me. Everything else is a means to that end. The LOTR books are a good example of this for me, the beginning suuuucked. I hated it. But it had a good promise and the ending (at least everyone but Frodo's climax) was really good. This is not to say that a shitty beginning is excusable, I guess its important to have that promise there, that there will be something eventual that may happen. I think that's just my style. I'm like a train. Slow start, but get it going, and it won't stop. Not until it falls off the rails and goes flying to punch God in the face before falling back to earth to kick the devil in the nuts. Edit: And then suicide because I hate my characters and they will never receive a happy ending. Double Edit: Speaking of, I just finished the beginning introduction to that one character I was having issues with it. I don't like it but I've finally got something to work with!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 22:38:51 GMT -5
I have the absolute hardest time coming up beginnings. Endings I let happen organically and seldom plan for, but beginnings are next to impossible for me. Any thoughts on how to make a good beginning? What makes a good beginning? Is a hook more important, or is introduction? My favorite beginnings usually begin with quotes from the universe the story is set in. It brings you into the world quickly by a quick twist of having written material within the material you are currently reading. That sets in my mind that the author has thoroughly fleshed out the background of the piece, that they've spent enough time in their world to come up with histories and culture, a - past- in the present you're about to read in. That, more than anything, draws me into a story. Edit: Unless it's a prophecy or something earth-shattering. Then it's just silly. You like Ciaphus Cain too, huh?
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Post by James on Jun 19, 2012 2:09:32 GMT -5
I have the absolute hardest time coming up beginnings. Endings I let happen organically and seldom plan for, but beginnings are next to impossible for me. Any thoughts on how to make a good beginning? What makes a good beginning? Is a hook more important, or is introduction? My favorite beginnings usually begin with quotes from the universe the story is set in. It brings you into the world quickly by a quick twist of having written material within the material you are currently reading. That sets in my mind that the author has thoroughly fleshed out the background of the piece, that they've spent enough time in their world to come up with histories and culture, a - past- in the present you're about to read in. That, more than anything, draws me into a story. I don't think that can always work, though. I think that can only work in very select circumstances. I think Pete used it well in Wolves in the Dark. And essentially, Concerning Hobbits, is an expanded version of that. And I love that start (how can you not like it, Sekot!?). But any scene that starts with action at the front? Or even just where a quote would seem odd. I don't think it could work.
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Post by James on Jun 19, 2012 2:12:44 GMT -5
Is a hook more important, or is introduction? Not mutually exclusive. For example, and because while the writing is quite bad, I like the principle of it: Phantoms. In Phantoms, I started with a man walking through a muddy farmland. I introduced his appearance. And hinted at a deadly enemy. I then introduced the other protagonist. I then brought in a ruined house (intrigue/mystery). Then a fight scene. Then a hook. All within the first chapter. Obviously, that was for a novel. Fitting all that in for a beginning in a short story is far harder. But there's no reason you can't introduce and build suspense/intrigue/whatever at the same time.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Jun 19, 2012 2:33:48 GMT -5
I've always liked the twist ending; and incorporate it regularly in my stories. Though I realize that in doing so my stories have become, ironicly, predictable. Folks look for the twist in the build up expecting it at the end; so I've been working at writing short pieces where things resolve themselves in predictable satifying ways. The kind of story where a reader can finish and say, "Yes, that makes sense."
The fun part is that those two types of endings both affect the way in which I begin. With a twist ending, I almost always start with a solid ending and use that last sentence as the foundation for the whole rest of the story. So the reader (I hope) is sorting through a flock of loosely connected details, some which seem to contradict others, and they're at least partly in the ether right up to that last sentence where I turn the screw and they go, "Oh shit... so that's what ____ was about?"
But in writing a more logical ending I almost invariably have to begin at the beginning. In following a logical chain of events, I need to have a starting line that points me in a direction, and then just write until all the loose ends are wrapped up. Sometimes by means of deliberate tying; sometimes by means of happen stance. This way, I think, works better for longer stories because you can formulate a series of smaller endings periocially throughout the piece; where as a twist relies heavily on the reader remembering how you began and not being bogged down in pointless detail and sub-plots.
More often than not, my beginning sentence is something I don't spend a lot of time crafting; not right away at least. usually I'll jot down a half-assed ham-fisted "It was a dark and story night. . . " type openning sentence and build on that. Once I reach the end, once I've come to know the story; it's tone, it's pacing, its light/darkness, etc. Then I'll go back in my final draft and contruct an openning sentence which I feel conveys these things well.
The openning sentence, though, I seem to like keeping short and sweet; but some thing that forces questions. A few of my all time favorite opening sentences. . .
"It all started with an aurochs." -- Stephen Lawhead; Paradise War What a great beginning. It's so simple but it begs questions, it immediately implants inquiry into the reader's mind, "What all started?" "What the hell is an aurochs?"
"Who is John Galt?" --Ayn Rand; Atlas Shrugged Again, super simple, but yeah, who -is- that guy? It's a question which you literally don't learn the answer to til almost two thirds of the way through the book; but it's constantly dangled there carrot-on-stick style. It's the only beginning I've ever read that has carried me so deeply into a story.
"There were prodigies and portents enough, One-eye says." -- Glen Cook; Black Company Little longer than I usually prefer, but hooked, immediately. Prodigies? Portents? Of what? Who/what is One-Eye?
Ultimately it's a style I'e adopted and use consistently to decent effect I think. My absolute favorite openning sentence I've ever written has to be:
"Uch'Ulani was right."
And I think it prefaced one of my favorite pieces I've ever written. So yeah, simple beginnings that beg questions; that's the way to go for me, that's how you grab me. Long meadering sentences right out of the gate just don't do it for me.
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Post by James on Jun 19, 2012 2:48:07 GMT -5
Long meadering sentences right out of the gate just don't do it for me. I think that is my most common comment when I'm reviewing, especially where I'm actually judging. Have long, deeply metaphorical sentences with flowing imagery as much as you like. But don't start with one. I need to get 'warmed-up' with your style so to speak.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Jun 19, 2012 2:49:06 GMT -5
Long meadering sentences right out of the gate just don't do it for me. I think that is my most common comment when I'm reviewing, especially where I'm actually judging. Have long, deeply metaphorical sentences with flowing imagery as much as you like. But don't start with one. I need to get 'warmed-up' with your style so to speak. Yeah, even Tolkein didn't do that, and that dude could ramble.
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