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Post by J.O.N ((Dragonwing)) on Jun 25, 2012 10:38:56 GMT -5
Mash them together into an unrecognizable mess. Weird fiction! Something weird that I've noticed: when you mash together fantasy and sci-fi ... it's usually still sci-fi. Like, you can add magic and elves and stuff to a sci-fi story without compromising it overmuch, but put one spaceship into a fantasy story and suddenly all bets are off. That's just an observation, not any kind of argument. I just think it's interesting that the sci-fi aesthetic "gene" tends to dominate the fantasy gene more often than not. Would Urban-Fantasy be a possible fusion of the two? Just going off Harry Dresden as an example; in it the author puts great detail in the relationship of technology and magic and the science behind magic.
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Post by Sekot on Jun 25, 2012 10:43:08 GMT -5
Mash them together into an unrecognizable mess. Weird fiction! Something weird that I've noticed: when you mash together fantasy and sci-fi ... it's usually still sci-fi. Like, you can add magic and elves and stuff to a sci-fi story without compromising it overmuch, but put one spaceship into a fantasy story and suddenly all bets are off. That's just an observation, not any kind of argument. I just think it's interesting that the sci-fi aesthetic "gene" tends to dominate the fantasy gene more often than not. In a lot of "soft" sci-fi or space opera, science does take on the quality of magic. I think space opera is actually an excellent combination of the two. But this debate is pretty silly overall. You can have world building in both, you can have good character studies in both, and you can make philosophical statements in both. Its all about the environment you wish to escape to. I mean, the two have some pretty arbitrary distinctions in a lot of areas.
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Post by Matteo ((Taed)) on Jun 25, 2012 10:51:43 GMT -5
I find, and this may be just personal preference, but I find a lot more creative freedom in sci-fi. I don't know if that's because I feel bound by engrained fantasy tropes, or because sci-fi generally has a larger scope, or because the "science" element provides a very large and fertile field to build from. I think part of it might be that sci-fi is often weirder than fantasy? Or at least that sci-fi's weirdness often seems to be more .... adult? Would Urban-Fantasy be a possible fusion of the two? Just going off Harry Dresden as an example; in it the author puts great detail in the relationship of technology and magic and the science behind magic. Note: For the purposes of this roundtable, when I say "fantasy" I am not talking about urban fantasy. It's its own distinct genre as far as I'm concerned. I'm talking about traditional high/low/epic/mythic/fairytale/swords-and-horses fantasy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2012 21:27:29 GMT -5
Space Opera + cyberpunk is my favourite for scifi, similar to Chronicles of Riddick or Warhammer 40,000. Right now, I'm trying to reconcile a Mass Effect style tech with a semi-40k aesthetic in my scifi setting.
With fantasy, I like it to be a confined world; the sky literally a dome of heaven, the sun literally being an entity, things like that.
In terms of worldbuilding, scifi tends to be more fun. In fantasy I try to make everything better than it is in real life, even in silly detailed matters (words never sound silly, just intense or neat). I go out of my way to establish cultures to work around and with each other, same with the gods.
In scifi, you can do that, but it's not nearly as defining. It's a lot easier to just go crazy with. I usually set up a planet and choose a life form to evolve to sentience, and the culture comes with it. It's really quite amazing to go through.
I'm a lover of both, really. In the end, I suppose I say that fantasy indulges my spirituality and ethics more, scifi indulges my metaphysics and nature of the cosmos more.
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Post by James on Jun 26, 2012 22:34:56 GMT -5
Mash them together into an unrecognizable mess. Weird fiction! Something weird that I've noticed: when you mash together fantasy and sci-fi ... it's usually still sci-fi. Like, you can add magic and elves and stuff to a sci-fi story without compromising it overmuch, but put one spaceship into a fantasy story and suddenly all bets are off. I think that's a very true observation. I wonder if that has anything to do with the age of the relevant genres. While completely fictional, elves and magic isn't uncommon to the everyday reader. Therefore if it pops up in another genre, you don't think about it so much. They're not so dominating. Sci-fi, while still around for a while has only really pushed itself into the everyday readers' conscience after the pulp era. ... actually, yeah, I don't know. I find, and this may be just personal preference, but I find a lot more creative freedom in sci-fi. I don't know if that's because I feel bound by engrained fantasy tropes, or because sci-fi generally has a larger scope, or because the "science" element provides a very large and fertile field to build from. I think part of it might be that sci-fi is often weirder than fantasy? Or at least that sci-fi's weirdness often seems to be more .... adult? See, I'm the complete opposite. I feel more creative freedom in fantasy. But I think that all comes down to the experience in the genre for the writer, but also the expectation of the reader of each genre. I think fantasy readers want two things: entertainment and then to be challenged on certain topics (for some anyway). With sci-fi readers, I think it's the opposite. You see this with the requirements of the various magazines out there. There's a higher expectation on science fiction to be thought provoking. And so, I think there's a greater burden on the writer. Would Urban-Fantasy be a possible fusion of the two? Just going off Harry Dresden as an example; in it the author puts great detail in the relationship of technology and magic and the science behind magic. I don't think Urban Fantasy is fantasy + sci-fi. There's not really a science fiction element, it's just contemporary. And contemporary is increasingly technologically advance.
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Post by James on Jul 1, 2012 18:51:20 GMT -5
Discussion #3 The Good Ship Shipping Well, after last week's discussion fizzled out, I thought it might be worth having a go at a far less serious, humourous topic (although, who knows, things might get serious). So, this week, we'll be discussing the weird case of shipping. - Is it possible for the readers to understand the characters better than the writer?
- Can writers actually be deemed to make mistakes concerning their own fictional character's love lives?
- Can a failed ship leave such a bad taste in the mouth it can ruin the story?
- And anything else you'd like to discuss or even rant on (considering the topic).
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Post by Sekot on Jul 1, 2012 18:53:45 GMT -5
The author is dead.
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Post by James on Jul 1, 2012 18:57:38 GMT -5
But does that not more refer to the interpretation of a text in regards to themes? Which, I think, is not a bad argument to make. Once the writer is done with it, it does move onto the reader to take what they want from it. With the relationships of the character, though? Does it still work? Especially if the writer has gone out of their way to stay that this relationship is real and this one is not?
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Post by Sekot on Jul 1, 2012 19:04:49 GMT -5
But does that not more refer to the interpretation of a text in regards to themes? Which, I think, is not a bad argument to make. Once the writer is done with it, it does move onto the reader to take what they want from it. With the relationships of the character, though? Does it still work? Especially if the writer has gone out of their way to stay that this relationship is real and this one is not? It applies to any sort of interpretation really. All it means is that once the text exists, it no longer matters what the author thinks or what their purpose was. You're right in that it tangentially applies. I was attempting a bit tongue in cheek saying you can ship whoever you want, which is terrible and you shouldn't do it because ships are bad and tumblr is of the devil. Relationships and shipping pulls out all sorts of interpretations based off of really wacky or really mundane things. Shipping provides some of the most hilarious and utterly creepy shit I've ever read. Most of the time (all of the time) it comes off as really bad fanfiction. Even worse if its self-insert. Video games I think are notorious for creating terrible ships. Like, I can't even think of one that's actually good. Books are, of course, much better with it. The Importance of Being Earnest has one of the biggest shipping interpretations I can think of, and not without good reason.
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Post by James on Jul 1, 2012 19:08:13 GMT -5
Relationships and shipping pulls out all sorts of interpretations based off of really wacky or really mundane things. Shipping provides some of the most hilarious and utterly creepy shit I've ever read. That, in of itself, is probably a really good discussion point. What is it about relationships between characters that can draw a far stronger emotional response than the plot and characters death and so on? I remember that J.K Rowling got death threats from people who thought Harry and Hermione should have ended together. Which is extreme at the least.
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Post by J.O.N ((Dragonwing)) on Jul 1, 2012 22:41:56 GMT -5
Relationships and shipping pulls out all sorts of interpretations based off of really wacky or really mundane things. Shipping provides some of the most hilarious and utterly creepy shit I've ever read. That, in of itself, is probably a really good discussion point. What is it about relationships between characters that can draw a far stronger emotional response than the plot and characters death and so on? I remember that J.K Rowling got death threats from people who thought Harry and Hermione should have ended together. Which is extreme at the least. Were they from you? And I'm pretty much on par with Sekot.
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Post by James on Jul 1, 2012 22:49:05 GMT -5
That, in of itself, is probably a really good discussion point. What is it about relationships between characters that can draw a far stronger emotional response than the plot and characters death and so on? I remember that J.K Rowling got death threats from people who thought Harry and Hermione should have ended together. Which is extreme at the least. Were they from you? Oh god no. While I never agreed with the finished relationships of Harry Potter, that nowhere near ruined the story for me. That's why I found the shipping of that series so morbidly amusing. People became so invested in it. But Harry Potter was about friendship and family far more than romance, which is why I found the film version of HBP so horrible. It's like the writer and director completely missed the point of the book. Also, if I were to go back to the HP books now and debate what relationships, I think I'd lean more towards Harry/Luna.
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Post by Sekot on Jul 1, 2012 23:41:08 GMT -5
Relationships and shipping pulls out all sorts of interpretations based off of really wacky or really mundane things. Shipping provides some of the most hilarious and utterly creepy shit I've ever read. That, in of itself, is probably a really good discussion point. What is it about relationships between characters that can draw a far stronger emotional response than the plot and characters death and so on? I remember that J.K Rowling got death threats from people who thought Harry and Hermione should have ended together. Which is extreme at the least. I think its just part of the emotional attachment. Its a testament, I guess, to Rowling's characterization that she was able to make them so relatable and so desirable that people wanted to live through them vicariously enough to be enraged when there selective ships went up in flames. Part of it is also the internet. I'm not kidding when I say tumblr is mostly a dark pit of shipping and misery. It provides an echo chamber for people to share their beliefs and desires.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Jul 2, 2012 14:49:34 GMT -5
I think shipping simply reflects the different way in which we, as people, percieve emotional/sexual compatibility. The author clear sees things one way, understands their characters, their characters experiences, etc. But the reader, reading these same thigns, might percieve them differently; it's a matter of personal experience on the part of both parties.
And it's not just a literature thing; we "ship" in real life all the time. When you see two friends who seem perfect for eachother but don't see it; or a friend whose boy/girlfriend seems terrible for them and you secretly think they should be seeing someone else. And occassionally we do it with our own lives; "I'm with this person, but could totally see myself with -that- person."
Literatrue, and fan-fiction specifically, just provide us with a medium by which to create and live these fantasies. This idea of how it -should- have been. I think it's fine, and a completely natural reaction to analyzing character interactions.
I think some folks go a little overboard, of course, but "shipping" as a concept seems fine. I'd be more upset, as a writer, if people didn't care enough to look that deeply at my characters.
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Post by Sekot on Jul 2, 2012 17:53:10 GMT -5
The best thing about shipping are the names.
Fandoms are scary places. Bronies are a good example.
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