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Post by Sekot on Mar 10, 2016 18:08:55 GMT -5
Like I said, Rowling probably could have gotten away with it if she'd been a little more respectful about it, hadn't turned it on it's head. I don't think anyone would have had any problem with it if she'd at least tried to get it right, but she didn't. Wouldn't they? I very much got the impression from that blog that people would still have been upset if Rowling took any inspiration from the mythology of any Native American tribe. I agree with all that. But yeah, I'm not sure that's what everyone is saying. I think some people are arguing that she shouldn't have gone there in the first place. That's where I struggle. I mean...if you're going to write about a culture poorly, and paint one particular culture as a monolyth of continent-spanning proportions, then should you really be writing about it all? Because even within that culture there are going to be nuances that you're going to miss, and depending on how off the mark you are, you can really offend those people and, within the pop-cultural-capitalist monetization and commodification sort of mindset you've now made a boat-load of bucks off of mischaracterizing entire nations of people. I think there's a difference between including characters of a particular culture with particular beliefs, and then saying "This Continent believed This" and then having it be so wrong its embarrassing. Part of the problem is just that there's no information on these particular cultures, or at least not outside of academic circles, and so the ability to write authentically about particular cultures is then impossible. But, for JK Rowling, I don't think it'd be out of the realm of possibility to do some research or hire some researchers to provide her with good information. The problem I have with the "cultural appropriation" argument is that there's a strong current of "you can't touch it at all, ever, AMEN". Which, if we truly seek to be a multicultural organism, then that means opening certain doors and sharing your culture in a way that is respectful and doesn't have money funneling away into larger, separate corporations. Farmers Markets vs. Taco Bell. I think indigenous cultures are amazing and I want to know more about them, but there just isn't any easy way to do that as I'm white and if I were to write a book it'd mean I'd be making money off of their culture that they probably wouldn't see unless I donated some. There's definitely a difference between wearing a headdress as a Halloween costume and writing about some dude experiencing Chinatown with first-generation immigrants who have nowhere else to turn and you're sipping tea they brought with them from China. Unfortunately, I think Rowling's attempts fall more in-line with parody. There was a native population around the time of colonization, I want to say it was the Cherokee but I can't remember, that had what amounted to a state. They had laws and a city and a governing body. It was vastly different, reading about it, then what is normally taught: all first peoples were nomads by nature. So I can definitely understand why so many people would be upset with her, and I think because so many were invested within the world of Harry Potter that they now feel kind of let-down or left out because their cultures are mis/under/not represented. As for writing within the realm of Urban Fantasy, I guess it just depends. Its all about the execution. If you poorly mischaracterize gay culture I'll tell you, but then I'll also tell you how to make it better. While it isn't my -job- to instruct you, I certainly think more sharing and more openness can lead to better outcomes. You can't preserve a culture in stone, it lives and breathes and adapts even within the larger culture that assimilated it and outside of it. But that's also very po-mo-blahblahblah and I'm sure someone can come out of the woodwork and tell me I'm a white devil and I'm wrong always and forever. |
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Post by James on Mar 10, 2016 18:21:57 GMT -5
I feel like all three of us are sort of circling the same position. You totally can be inspired and influence by other cultures, but you've got to do it in a respectful way and what Rowling did, while not malicious, was pretty shoddy.
But yeah, it looks like you definitely share my apprehension about "cultural appropriation" becoming a "you can never use this" type situation. I see that as just being another area in the "political correctness/free spech" war going on which I don't think has any easy answer. We are, at the same time, both too sensitive and too tolerant of horrible views.
But I also think, even writing "fun" genres like "urban fantasy" you should be aware of these issues and trying to work with them.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 10, 2016 20:05:23 GMT -5
I think there's a difference between including characters of a particular culture with particular beliefs, and then saying "This Continent believed This" and then having it be so wrong its embarrassing. Part of the problem is just that there's no information on these particular cultures, or at least not outside of academic circles, and so the ability to write authentically about particular cultures is then impossible. But, for JK Rowling, I don't think it'd be out of the realm of possibility to do some research or hire some researchers to provide her with good information. Her books are so popular, if she had reached out to a Native culture and said, "Hey guys, I don't know if you're aware, but I'm moving my story to the American continent and would like for Native peoples to play a role. Would someone be willing to work with me to make sure these culture are incorporated in a fashion which is both sensitive and relatively accurate?" I guarantee you a representative from one tribe or another would have jumped at the chance to have their people properly represented in a work which is guaranteed to hit such a huge audience. I feel like all three of us are sort of circling the same position. You totally can be inspired and influence by other cultures, but you've got to do it in a respectful way and what Rowling did, while not malicious, was pretty shoddy. But yeah, it looks like you definitely share my apprehension about "cultural appropriation" becoming a "you can never use this" type situation. I see that as just being another area in the "political correctness/free spech" war going on which I don't think has any easy answer. We are, at the same time, both too sensitive and too tolerant of horrible views. But I also think, even writing "fun" genres like "urban fantasy" you should be aware of these issues and trying to work with them. I just feel like, if you're going to write about a culture which is not your own, you should at least run it by someone of that culture before releasing it to a wider audience. |
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Post by James on Mar 11, 2016 19:04:13 GMT -5
I think I'm too verbose. My short stories are always heading toward 5,000 words really quickly. I don't know if that's just because I don't really want to write short stories, but something longer most of the time.
I might experiment with this current story I'm writing to see how much I can edit and cut at the end.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 11, 2016 19:12:51 GMT -5
I think I'm too verbose. My short stories are always heading toward 5,000 words really quickly. I don't know if that's just because I don't really want to write short stories, but something longer most of the time. I might experiment with this current story I'm writing to see how much I can edit and cut at the end. My problem is the opposite... I feel like I cover a lot of ground really quickly and often find myself going back and padding things out. I like a nice, clean, narrative without a bunch of distractions. When the verbiage gets to heavy I tend to lose interest. |
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Post by James on Mar 11, 2016 19:18:22 GMT -5
I think, in this story at least, the problem is also trying to make a place come alive and feel a bit like a character. The "introduction" was way longer than I meant and I think is going to be heavily cut.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 11, 2016 19:33:56 GMT -5
Here's a question for you, anyone who wants to answer; not counting the world building competition (since it was such a departure) how would you classify my work, in general? Genre wise, I mean. If you had to give it a label.
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 11, 2016 19:43:13 GMT -5
I think, in this story at least, the problem is also trying to make a place come alive and feel a bit like a character. The "introduction" was way longer than I meant and I think is going to be heavily cut. Might I suggest redistributing before you go cutting? You've got a nasty habit of front loading. That doesn't necessarily mean the information being given isn't valuable, it's just that getting it all at once right asst the beginning is daunting. Before you go deleting stuff, see if maybe you can just sprinkle it over the rest of the story. Use it as filler for places that need padding, that sort of thing. |
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Post by James on Mar 11, 2016 21:41:45 GMT -5
Here's a question for you, anyone who wants to answer; not counting the world building competition (since it was such a departure) how would you classify my work, in general? Genre wise, I mean. If you had to give it a label. I'm not sure I can actually give you a label. I guess, you're probably the most "literary/realist" writer out of the lot of us and I don't think you fit neatly into the label of a "genre writer". When you do include genre elements, it's pretty subtle (like Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, which is a sci-fi book that isn't really a sci-fi). But some of my favourite stories of yours, (the Charon afterlife story, Mauwale, Sophie the Grief Robot) have toyed with speculative fiction to varying levels. Tough to fit you into a box. I actually think we're both trying to inhabit a similar space: somewhere between literary and speculative fiction. But I come at it from a very speculative background, trying to make it more literary. And you come at it from a literary background, dabbling in speculative elements. But labels are tough. I think the fact that I can't place you in one is a good thing. It's a compliment. |
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Post by James on Mar 11, 2016 21:43:06 GMT -5
I think, in this story at least, the problem is also trying to make a place come alive and feel a bit like a character. The "introduction" was way longer than I meant and I think is going to be heavily cut. Might I suggest redistributing before you go cutting? You've got a nasty habit of front loading. That doesn't necessarily mean the information being given isn't valuable, it's just that getting it all at once right asst the beginning is daunting. Before you go deleting stuff, see if maybe you can just sprinkle it over the rest of the story. Use it as filler for places that need padding, that sort of thing. Yeah I've been trying to work on that front loading thing ever since you mentioned it (several times I feel like I've gone too far and perhaps I needed to include more information). But just the nature of the story makes it hard not to have a degree of frontloading. I think it'll be easier to work out once I'm finished. |
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 11, 2016 23:00:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree if for no other reason than my general disdain for genre labels. But I feel like if I can assign some manner of label it might help draw interest.
Like, I've been noting my clicks on the old blog, and in getting lots of folks checking out and "liking" the link they'ee directed to, but no clicks to any of the posted fiction. Even from the posts which directly reference the stories.
So, anyway, "Speculative Literature" work for you?
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Post by James on Mar 12, 2016 0:45:00 GMT -5
Like, I've been noting my clicks on the old blog, and in getting lots of folks checking out and "liking" the link they'ee directed to, but no clicks to any of the posted fiction. Even from the posts which directly reference the stories. I also have this problem. The Haunting of the Author was the most liked post I've had, but only 2-3 people actually went on to read the poem that the blog post was about. Eh, not really. I don't know, gut instinct it sounds weird. |
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Post by ASGetty ((Zovo)) on Mar 12, 2016 1:23:04 GMT -5
Yeah, it sounds a little more... grandiose than it actually is. But I also feel like "speculative fiction" is just way too broad.
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Post by James on Mar 12, 2016 1:26:11 GMT -5
You also don't always write speculative fiction. I think it would be easier for you to just label each individual story (it also means you don't lose readers who go "Oh, he's just a genre writer".
But yeah, if I had to define myself I guess I would say "speculative fiction" and even then that would be ignoring a handful of stories I've written which aren't speculative fiction at all. And I think you're even further down the tracks than I am with non-genre stuff.
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Post by James on Mar 12, 2016 16:14:19 GMT -5
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