[3] The Writing Discussion Thread

[JMDavis ((Silver))]

Figure this can fit into the writing thread (if one of the admins disagrees with that, so be it) but:

www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/09/jk-rowling-under-fire-for-appropriating-navajo-tradition-history-of-magic-in-north-america-pottermore

Wanted to see what others think about this current controversy, and if any of you who write Urban Fantasy take such things as the real culture's beliefs, into account before going forward and writing anything to do with them.

My personal stance, on writing, I do try to take into consideration the culture and show it as respectfully as possible without it hindering the world I've created. Remaining respectful, but at the same time making it clear 'They exist in a world where (insert fantasy here) exists, this is not our world. This is only meant to reflect our world in landmasses and somewhat of a shared common history. Nothing more.'

On the controversy, I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I do agree that they can have some cause for concern by the sheer fact other people have turned Native American culture into a commodity. On the other hand, this is a setting where WWII was fought between nations, with good wizards battling dark wizards in the background - which leads me to the same sort of response when you have Christian parents removing references of magic from the book to replace them with religion.

[Kaez]

Nah, fuck that. I mean. I get it, but fuck that. She didn't use European culture as a "convenient prop" so why is that the case with Native American culture? It's true that Native Americans have much more reason to be on the look-out for the objectification and commodification of their culture and that they have a history of being caricatures for white artists, but that isn't at all what's happening here unless I grossly misunderstand what Rowling has done.

[Dylaria]

Mar 10, 2016 9:45:52 GMT -5 Kaez said:

Nah, fuck that. I mean. I get it, but fuck that. She didn't use European culture as a "convenient prop" so why is that the case with Native American culture? It's true that Native Americans have much more reason to be on the look-out for the objectification and commodification of their culture and that they have a history of being caricatures for white artists, but that isn't at all what's happening here unless I grossly misunderstand what Rowling has done.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. Seems like another knee-jerk reaction where using something that is cultural in reality for a fictional work is instantly "offensive." I mean we could be wrong and there may be issues, but from what I read that isn't what I got out of it.

As for writing Urban Fantasy myself, its been awhile since I've written anything really. I had an idea in the genre awhile back but got bored with it after hitting a few walls on how to handle some plot stuff. My general approach with things like religion though were having characters that knew the truth but refused to say due to normal humans effectively being predictable morons. (aka it would start world war three and no wisdom would be gained from said knowledge)

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

Well, the whole piece that is apparently at fault is a grand total of -maybe- 500 words long. The part people seem to be taking issue with is this:

The legend of the Native American ‘skin walker’ – an evil witch or wizard that can transform into an animal at will – has its basis in fact. A legend grew up around the Native American Animagi, that they had sacrificed close family members to gain their powers of transformation. In fact, the majority of Animagi assumed animal forms to escape persecution or to hunt for the tribe. Such derogatory rumours often originated with No-Maj medicine men, who were sometimes faking magical powers themselves, and fearful of exposure.

That all seems pretty tame, but then, I'm not Navajo. As I'm sure I've said before, cultural appropriation in literature is something I've had a lot of attention on lately because of the work I've been doing on Mauwale. It's an issue I'm really concerned about, and really all I'm doing is drawing on an aesthetic; not even the culture so much. But, sometimes these things are not so easily separated and you have to take care not to trivialize the culture in your efforts to incorporate an element or two. Something which Rowling has actually done here.

Again, speaking from a purely non-Navajo perspective here; the legend of the Skin-Walker surrounds people who are evil. But what you have to keep in mind that this was/is an actual belief, not just a campfire story. It was considered a real-world consequence of evil actions that one could become this bloodthirsty outcast. Similarly, the actions which granted them their powers cemented their standing firmly in the realm of evil beings since a person could only become by doing evil. A skin-Walker is person granted shape shifting powers by violating sacred cultural standards. They are basically demons. Now, true, other media have used the story of the skinwalker for inspiration, but most of them at least retain the idea that the skinwalker is bad news.

If you read that quoted paragraph and translate it into the perspective of someone who still holds these beliefs, or even simply respects the traditions, there's a lot wrong with it. Primarily, though, it trivializes the role of the Skin-Walker in "Native American" belief by reducing what they believed to be an absolute evil into crazy mix-up perpetrated by con-men who were posing as sacred healers and shamans but really didn't have any power. Instead of being these creatures which symbolized the very foundations of evil, she's made the Skin-Walker into the victim. Normal witches or wizards who were just trying to do good things but ended up persecuted and driven into exile.

It does a complete 180 degree turn on what the skin-walker symbolizes and stomps right on top of the tradition; while at the same time implying that (some) Native American religious figures were just pulling the proverbial wool over the eyes of their tribes.

Now, is it right to get your panties in a wad over some British lady getting your legends wrong? Probably not; I mean, on the scale of bad things that white people have done to Native Americans, this is pretty low. But, I can also see where, with an intellectual property as popular as the Harry Potter universe, you'd want them at least getting the foundations right. I mean, if Rowling had at least kept the skinwalker firmly in the realm of evil creatures (an not implied that medicine men were a sham) I suspect this wouldn't have been an issue.

Of course, I'm sure this is being over-inflated by the media, anyway. Was probably just one random reddit user took issue, and now it's a controversy.

[James]

Yeah, I think Zovo is mostly onto it. There's essentially two arguments going on here:

1) White people shouldn't use other cultures for their stories.
So, some people are saying Rowling shouldn't have written about Native Americans at all. Which I think is bullshit.

I think it is better if writers try to tell more stories based in more diverse cultures. It would be great to see a whole bunch of diverse authors writing in diverse settings. But that doesn't happen at the moment. And I think it's better for writers to try and broaden fantasy beyond its European safe space. Readers see more perspectives. Writers challenge themselves. And hopefully, in the future, minority writers aren't being told "sorry, this type of stuff doesn't sell, please write about European stuff".

Also, in the end, if she hadn't written about them, she would have been told off for ignoring Native Americans.

2) White people should be respectful to the other cultures they use.
This is where Zovo's post is on-point. It seems like there's a few Najavo academics and writers who are upset because Rowling has taken something seen to be evil, and made them into victims. And I think there's a point to that. I think a writer should try and be respectful to other cultures when using their stories to worldbuild.

There's also the added element that a lot of these beliefs are still held. Beliefs in dragons is not a widely shared view in Europe, so you can do whatever you like with it. However, some Maori do genuinely still believe in the Taniwha. I think you, probably, can say "this is fiction, I'm doing what I want". But I also think you shouldn't be surprise if people take offence to their mythology being taken. I would definitely try and be respectful when using something.

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

I can also see where one might take issue with a tradition which is predominantly Navajo being construed as generally Native American, as though there weren't a whole host of different cultures on the American continent prior to the arrival of Europeans.

That might be splitting hairs, though.

Edit: Guess not on the splitting hairs thing; that' apparently a significant issue. Go me. Here's a really insightful blog post about the whole thing which say what I'm trying to say in a much better fashion:

nativeappropriations.com/2016/03/magic-in-north-america-part-1-ugh.html

[James]

Mar 10, 2016 14:22:20 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

I can also see where one might take issue with a tradition which is predominantly Navajo being construed as generally Native American, as though there weren't a whole host of different cultures on the American continent prior to the arrival of Europeans.

That might be splitting hairs, though.

Yeah, definitely. People get upset about labels all the time. Scots hate to be called English. The English hate to be called European. South Americans resent that "America" is shorthand for the USA. The fact that Rowling has gone "Native American" as if there one people is problematic.

On the flip side, I think she's just kind of lazy like that. She came up with an "African school for magic". There's one single school for North America whereas Europe has at least three. I think Rowling's worldbuilding was originally set entirely in Europe and she's now trying to build worldwide and doing it in a very broad brushstroke way.

[James]

Mar 10, 2016 14:22:20 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

nativeappropriations.com/2016/03/magic-in-north-america-part-1-ugh.html

What happens when Rowling pulls this in, is we as Native people are now opened up to a barrage of questions about these beliefs and traditions (take a look at my twitter mentions if you don’t believe me)–but these are not things that need or should be discussed by outsiders. At all. I’m sorry if that seems “unfair,” but that’s how our cultures survive.

The other piece here is that Rowling is completely re-writing these traditions. Traditions that come from a particular context, place, understanding, and truth. These things are not “misunderstood wizards”. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

So this is the bit that is really interesting to me.

I completely understand the second paragraph.

But the first paragraph, I struggle with. I know I'm in a position of privilege. I'm well aware that part of my traditions and culture is the -main- reason why these cultures are having to struggle to survive. But I still struggle with the idea that "this is off-limit" is acceptable. I don't know. I guess it feeds back to the tension between "we have too many white male protagonists" and "god, why are white males writing from the experiences of women and other cultures". While neither one is ideal, the latter is way more preferable than the former.

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

Mar 10, 2016 14:48:16 GMT -5 James said:

Mar 10, 2016 14:22:20 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

nativeappropriations.com/2016/03/magic-in-north-america-part-1-ugh.html

What happens when Rowling pulls this in, is we as Native people are now opened up to a barrage of questions about these beliefs and traditions (take a look at my twitter mentions if you don’t believe me)–but these are not things that need or should be discussed by outsiders. At all. I’m sorry if that seems “unfair,” but that’s how our cultures survive.

The other piece here is that Rowling is completely re-writing these traditions. Traditions that come from a particular context, place, understanding, and truth. These things are not “misunderstood wizards”. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

So this is the bit that is really interesting to me.

I completely understand the second paragraph.

But the first paragraph, I struggle with. I know I'm in a position of privilege. I'm well aware that part of my traditions and culture is the -main- reason why these cultures are having to struggle to survive. But I still struggle with the idea that "this is off-limit" is acceptable. I don't know. I guess it feeds back to the tension between "we have too many white male protagonists" and "god, why are white males writing from the experiences of women and other cultures". While neither one is ideal, the latter is way more preferable than the former.

I think it's an issue of sanctity. As she mentions in that post, this isn't just a random campfire story, it's an important part of their belief structure and is tied to numerous other concepts and ideas and potentially a worldview you'd struggle to understand if you weren't raised with it.

Numerous entities (religious and non) have areas of restricted access where if you're not part of the right circle you aren't seeing it. This is no different. While it's a bummer that she isn't interested in sharing these beliefs with those of us who are curious, fact is, we all have things in our lives which are simply ours alone. They aren't to be shared.

What's really interesting, I think, about her blog post is that she (the author) is Cherokee, so she contacted a Navajo scholar about their feelings and, unless I read it wrong, this other scholar told her, "Nunya bizness." So she had to rely on her knowledge of Cherokee shapeshifter lore, and then in her own blog say, "Yeah, I'm not going to talk about it either."

To some degree I suspect it's more about protecting the culture an making sure it isn't bastardised and trivialized the way pop-culture tends to do with everything else. Native peoples simply don't trust pop-culture to respect their beliefs, so they don't talk about it. And you can't really fault them for that.

That first paragraph directly correlates to the second.

[James]

Mar 10, 2016 15:03:15 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

I think it's an issue of sanctity. As she mentions in that post, this isn't just a random campfire story, it's an important part of their belief structure and is tied to numerous other concepts and ideas and potentially a worldview you'd struggle to understand if you weren't raised with it.

Numerous entities (religious and non) have areas of restricted access where if you're not part of the right circle you aren't seeing it. This is no different. While it's a bummer that she isn't interested in sharing these beliefs with those of us who are curious, fact is, we all have things in our lives which are simply ours alone. They aren't to be shared.

What's really interesting, I think, about her blog post is that she (the author) is Cherokee, so she contacted a Navajo scholar about their feelings and, unless I read it wrong, this other scholar told her, "Nunya bizness." So she had to rely on her knowledge of Cherokee shapeshifter lore, and then in her own blog say, "Yeah, I'm not going to talk about it either."

To some degree I suspect it's more about protecting the culture an making sure it isn't bastardised and trivialized the way pop-culture tends to do with everything else. Native peoples simply don't trust pop-culture to respect their beliefs, so they don't talk about it. And you can't really fault them for that.

That first paragraph directly correlates to the second.

Oh yeah, it's not a question of saying "well, why don't you talk about it? You should talk about". It's their call. It's also not an issue of saying "but I wanna know!!!". Again, it's their stories and traditions.

It's more the issue of: is that area of culture now off-limit as inspiration to all the writers of the world?

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

Mar 10, 2016 15:07:58 GMT -5 James said:

Mar 10, 2016 15:03:15 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

I think it's an issue of sanctity. As she mentions in that post, this isn't just a random campfire story, it's an important part of their belief structure and is tied to numerous other concepts and ideas and potentially a worldview you'd struggle to understand if you weren't raised with it.

Numerous entities (religious and non) have areas of restricted access where if you're not part of the right circle you aren't seeing it. This is no different. While it's a bummer that she isn't interested in sharing these beliefs with those of us who are curious, fact is, we all have things in our lives which are simply ours alone. They aren't to be shared.

What's really interesting, I think, about her blog post is that she (the author) is Cherokee, so she contacted a Navajo scholar about their feelings and, unless I read it wrong, this other scholar told her, "Nunya bizness." So she had to rely on her knowledge of Cherokee shapeshifter lore, and then in her own blog say, "Yeah, I'm not going to talk about it either."

To some degree I suspect it's more about protecting the culture an making sure it isn't bastardised and trivialized the way pop-culture tends to do with everything else. Native peoples simply don't trust pop-culture to respect their beliefs, so they don't talk about it. And you can't really fault them for that.

That first paragraph directly correlates to the second.

Oh yeah, it's not a question of saying "well, why don't you talk about it? You should talk about". It's their call. It's also not an issue of saying "but I wanna know!!!". Again, it's their stories and traditions.

It's more the issue of: is that area of culture now off-limit as inspiration to all the writers of the world?

Well, there's the difference, though. There's inspiration, and there's appropriation.

Like I said, Rowling probably could have gotten away with it if she'd been a little more respectful about it, hadn't turned it on it's head. I don't think anyone would have had any problem with it if she'd at least tried to get it right, but she didn't. She took a thing which already had an identity and twisted into something else to fit her narrative in the process telling "Native Americans" that even in a fictional context they've had it wrong this whole time. If you're going to do that, just create something wholly fictional; give it a new name and a new context.

It's not tat authors shouldn't be allowed to write about that area of culture... just don't re-write that area of culture.

[James]

Mar 10, 2016 15:49:44 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

Like I said, Rowling probably could have gotten away with it if she'd been a little more respectful about it, hadn't turned it on it's head. I don't think anyone would have had any problem with it if she'd at least tried to get it right, but she didn't.

Wouldn't they? I very much got the impression from that blog that people would still have been upset if Rowling took any inspiration from the mythology of any Native American tribe.

She took a thing which already had an identity and twisted into something else to fit her narrative in the process telling "Native Americans" that even in a fictional context they've had it wrong this whole time. If you're going to do that, just create something wholly fictional; give it a new name and a new context.

It's not tat authors shouldn't be allowed to write about that area of culture... just don't re-write that area of culture.

I agree with all that. But yeah, I'm not sure that's what everyone is saying. I think some people are arguing that she shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

That's where I struggle.

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

Mar 10, 2016 15:57:30 GMT -5 James said:

Mar 10, 2016 15:49:44 GMT -5 ASGetty ((Zovo)) said:

Like I said, Rowling probably could have gotten away with it if she'd been a little more respectful about it, hadn't turned it on it's head. I don't think anyone would have had any problem with it if she'd at least tried to get it right, but she didn't.

Wouldn't they? I very much got the impression from that blog that people would still have been upset if Rowling took any inspiration from the mythology of any Native American tribe.

She took a thing which already had an identity and twisted into something else to fit her narrative in the process telling "Native Americans" that even in a fictional context they've had it wrong this whole time. If you're going to do that, just create something wholly fictional; give it a new name and a new context.

It's not tat authors shouldn't be allowed to write about that area of culture... just don't re-write that area of culture.

I agree with all that. But yeah, I'm not sure that's what everyone is saying. I think some people are arguing that she shouldn't have gone there in the first place.

That's where I struggle.

And maybe that's the case.
It's probably better that I don't try to speak for an organization I'm not a part of.

But, at the same time, other authors and types of media have delved into the mythology without blowback.
Maybe it's just because her work is -so- popular? Or maybe it's just one blogger all bent out of shape.

[James]

Mar 10, 2016 6:29:04 GMT -5 JMDavis ((Silver)) said:

and if any of you who write Urban Fantasy take such things as the real culture's beliefs, into account before going forward and writing anything to do with them.

We at least managed to discuss Silver's initial point quite well!

[ASGetty ((Zovo))]

Mar 10, 2016 16:30:26 GMT -5 James said:

Mar 10, 2016 6:29:04 GMT -5 JMDavis ((Silver)) said:

and if any of you who write Urban Fantasy take such things as the real culture's beliefs, into account before going forward and writing anything to do with them.

We at least managed to discuss Silver's initial point quite well!

Very true.