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Post by James on Jun 4, 2015 15:30:11 GMT -5
We used to do the old 'word prompt' rounds. That was the earlier form of the genre rounds for AWR. It might be interesting to bring that back (I kind of did for the King of the Recluse with dilapidated).
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Post by James on Jun 6, 2015 18:40:09 GMT -5
Rejection letter quote: "it was a really close call."
I remember when I used to find lines like that really inspiring...
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Post by Kaez on Jun 6, 2015 19:18:24 GMT -5
Rejection letter quote: "it was a really close call." I remember when I used to find lines like that really inspiring... Well, since former you can't be here to represent himself, let me say on his behalf, "Dude, that's still pretty fucking awesome. That's more than most writers here, or anywhere, ever get." |
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 0:18:08 GMT -5
Rejection letter quote: "it was a really close call." I remember when I used to find lines like that really inspiring... Well, since former you can't be here to represent himself, let me say on his behalf, "Dude, that's still pretty fucking awesome. That's more than most writers here, or anywhere, ever get." Thanks for speaking on former me's behalf. I think there's a small part of me that irrationally thinks once I get one big writing credit, someone will appear from the shadows and provide me with a key to just writing and publishing all the time. And I know that won't happen. And I know that my writing won't change because of one small event. And I know that getting one short story published doesn't mean I'm selling a novel tomorrow. But there's just that tiny part me getting frustrated that I'm stuck at this stage where I'm knocking on the door and being told "why, you look awfully well-dressed but you still can't come in yet." |
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Sensar
Author
Homonecropedopheliac and Legal Property of AWR
Posts: 6,898
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Post by Sensar on Jun 7, 2015 2:02:06 GMT -5
Well, since former you can't be here to represent himself, let me say on his behalf, "Dude, that's still pretty fucking awesome. That's more than most writers here, or anywhere, ever get." Thanks for speaking on former me's behalf. I think there's a small part of me that irrationally thinks once I get one big writing credit, someone will appear from the shadows and provide me with a key to just writing and publishing all the time. And I know that won't happen. And I know that my writing won't change because of one small event. And I know that getting one short story published doesn't mean I'm selling a novel tomorrow. But there's just that tiny part me getting frustrated that I'm stuck at this stage where I'm knocking on the door and being told "why, you look awfully well-dressed but you still can't come in yet." This is a thing about a career in the arts. Rejection is ever-present. It's one of those careers where you have to be able to have a thick skin to make it through the professional world, yet still be available enough to do your art. I'm going to echo Kaez and say that most things in life, when they reject you they forget you. The fact that they were torn enough to tell you that you almost made it says boatloads. If they tell you why, it means they're interested in seeing you return. No matter what, this means they'll remember you next time. Just keep knocking. It'll happen. |
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Post by Kaez on Jun 7, 2015 22:26:29 GMT -5
I've been spending a lot of time at work brainstorming about my plans for NaNo.
I'm considering approaching a long narrative piece differently than I have in the past.
I'm thinking that I'm going to write the story, in full length and detail, not in prose. Then going back, and as the first major edit, converting the non-prose (which would fall somewhere between 'very in-depth summary' and 'absurdly detailed outline') into prose.
It's weird, but I think it could have some major benefits. It would put a lot more of the focus of the writing process on editing and revising, and in my experience, the best writing is generally thoroughly edited more than once. This takes some pressure off of the initial writing and prevents burn-out or writer's block. It would also allow for the initial writing effort to be entirely focused on an interesting story, interesting characters, establishing the setting, etc. without any concern for writing in pretty sentences or pacing or tone or word choice. And then during the first edit, it would allow one to focus entirely on writing beautifully and pacing things correctly because the story, characters, and setting are already established in depth. The result, in theory, is prose which is written better and which has a greater depth of content because you've focused on each of those things independently.
Any thoughts on this? Anyone written in a similar way?
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 22:39:39 GMT -5
I'm thinking that I'm going to write the story, in full length and detail, not in prose. Then going back, and as the first major edit, converting the non-prose (which would fall somewhere between 'very in-depth summary' and 'absurdly detailed outline') into prose. This bit confuses me. How is the story "in full length and detail" but is also a summary/outline? Surely, it's then not going to be in full length and detail? I do something similar, though, when I get to the end of a writing session. It's a lot less detailed than I think what you're suggesting, but I'll have normal prose and then the final paragraph before I leave the keyboard might be: Collingwood and Lizzie enters the boat. It's full of really macabre imagery about the end of the world: Egyptian (Ammit), Celtic (crows), Norse (Ragnarok) mythology and so on. The iconography is almost always flooding, with only a few fire and brimstone images. Use the line about Platonic ideals, the cabin is such a twisted place that it's now corrupting the very abstract idea of a boat. Collingwood can feel this going on.
Collingwood asks what the whole thing is about. Lizzie replies about the Batman Book of the Dead. She explains that the cabin is creating the very ideal of an Apocalypse. And then, when I sit down the next time, I adapt that little summary into prose. Once I'm done, not only have I got a nice bit of prose already done, but I'm now "warmed up" to carry on writing beyond the summary. I'm in the mood, I'm in the feel of the story. |
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Post by Kaez on Jun 7, 2015 22:47:12 GMT -5
That's very much like what I'm talking about. When I say 'full detail' I only mean to imply that it would include each individual scene, conversation, etc. It wouldn't be a conventional outline of the "this happens in Chapter 5" type, but really a paragraph-by-paragraph kind of summary. Just, in this case, instead of doing it at the end of writing prose to ease the transition into coming back to the text (which I've done in the past, like yourself, to great success) it would be done in full, initially, before any prose was written. Thereby distributing my attention fully to the quality of the plot/characters/etc. during the first writing process and entirely to the quality of the prose during the second writing process. I'm in the mood, I'm in the feel of the story. And, ideally, would do exactly this. |
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 22:50:24 GMT -5
I really like the idea, but I'm not sure if I could actually summarise each paragraph without actually writing it. Does that make sense? When you're at that micro stage of outlining, I think it almost becomes easier to just write the prose.
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Post by Kaez on Jun 7, 2015 22:52:58 GMT -5
I really like the idea, but I'm not sure if I could actually summarise each paragraph without actually writing it. Does that make sense? When you're at that micro stage of outlining, I think it almost becomes easier to just write the prose. I'm going to have to trial run it with a short story or a chapter first for sure, because I can't tell if it'll be intuitive and fun or totally difficult and just unravel. But if it -does- seem to work for me, I think the plan is to spend the next few months working on the first writing process (non-prose) slowly and meticulously, then using November to do the second writing process. Really appreciate your feedback. I like when AWR talks about writing technique and process. |
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 22:55:56 GMT -5
I mean, what you're doing is essentially just writing a bare-boned first draft, right? Maybe it's the talk of summaries and outlines that is making me feel like a disconnect is going on.
I could totally see the benefit of taking a really breezy, bare-boned approach to writing that first draft. Where you're essentially writing:
Alfred and Fredrick walked into the tavern. It was a big, wide room filled with paintings of various previous owners. Most of the people there were working men. There were metalworkers, carpenters and even a stable-master. Alfred walked to the bar, while Fredrick took a seat in the corner. It was by the fire.
"That's Ted's seat," a voice said from the shadows.
"Is it?" Fredrick said, not caring at all.
Whereas, when you say summary I was almost thinking something along the lines of:
Alfred and Fredrick goes into a pub. It's big and empty. It's mostly filled with labourers. Alfred gets some drinks while Fredrick goes and sit down. Someone tells him that he's just taken Ted's seat, but Fredrick doesn't care.
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Post by Kaez on Jun 7, 2015 23:17:56 GMT -5
I mean, what you're doing is essentially just writing a bare-boned first draft, right? Maybe it's the talk of summaries and outlines that is making me feel like a disconnect is going on. I could totally see the benefit of taking a really breezy, bare-boned approach to writing that first draft. Where you're essentially writing: Alfred and Fredrick walked into the tavern. It was a big, wide room filled with paintings of various previous owners. Most of the people there were working men. There were metalworkers, carpenters and even a stable-master. Alfred walked to the bar, while Fredrick took a seat in the corner. It was by the fire. "That's Ted's seat," a voice said from the shadows. "Is it?" Fredrick said, not caring at all. Whereas, when you say summary I was almost thinking something along the lines of: Alfred and Fredrick goes into a pub. It's big and empty. It's mostly filled with labourers. Alfred gets some drinks while Fredrick goes and sit down. Someone tells him that he's just taken Ted's seat, but Fredrick doesn't care. Definitely much closer to the former. "Bare bones first draft" or "absurdly detailed summary" seem like synonyms to me. The idea is to write everything that happens without caring about the quality of the prose whatsoever and without restraining from using phrases and language that would absolutely never turn up in the final draft (e.g. "add lots of macabre imagery", "kind of an Egyptian-themed thing", telling and not showing). |
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 23:28:22 GMT -5
Oh, in that case then I think it sounds like a pretty great idea if you've got the willpower and drive to edit and revise (which is really just saying if you've got the willpower to -write-). I suspect quite a few writers use this method.
I tend to use it if I get stuck on a paragraph. Instead of spending ages trying to find the right word, I'll just throw a placeholder sentence and move on. I've kind of done it, just now:
Reg, Solomon and the labourers all thought about the way the two buildings were alike, knowing that at this very moment, the people in the other tavern were thinking of the same thing. Then, as the clock struck eleven, both groups thought about how their memories were wrong – it was Tavern A that was by the clock tower and Tavern B sat by the small canal.
I certainly hope that those sentences wouldn't make it to the final draft!
But yeah, I don't see why you can't draw the idea out from "when you're stuck" to "the first draft".
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Post by Kaez on Jun 7, 2015 23:33:14 GMT -5
Oh, in that case then I think it sounds like a pretty great idea if you've got the willpower and drive to edit and revise (which is really just saying if you've got the willpower to -write-). I suspect quite a few writers use this method. I tend to use it if I get stuck on a paragraph. Instead of spending ages trying to find the right word, I'll just throw a placeholder sentence and move on. I've kind of done it, just now: Reg, Solomon and the labourers all thought about the way the two buildings were alike, knowing that at this very moment, the people in the other tavern were thinking of the same thing. Then, as the clock struck eleven, both groups thought about how their memories were wrong – it was Tavern A that was by the clock tower and Tavern B sat by the small canal.I certainly hope that those sentences wouldn't make it to the final draft! But yeah, I don't see why you can't draw the idea out from "when you're stuck" to "the first draft". Well that's very much the plan then. I've always been a "sit and write it all, fully, in one go, after just thinking about it for a few days" type. And while I think I wrote some rather nice things that way, I think I can write much better things if I approach it differently. And frankly, it just appeals to me more right now. I don't often have two uninterrupted hours to sit and really get into writing. But if I'm not worried at all about the quality of the prose yet? I can have an interruption or two and still write out the story. So it gets me excited about writing as something I have the time and capacity for. Which is great. |
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Post by James on Jun 7, 2015 23:37:05 GMT -5
So it gets me excited about writing as something I have the time and capacity for. Yay! |
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